Comments on: Is electoral reform totally out of the question? http://elleeseymour.com/2006/10/16/is-electoral-reform-totally-out-of-the-question/ PRESS CONSULTANT, JOURNALIST, GHOSTWRITER, POLITICAL AND PR BLOGGER. Thu, 24 May 2012 15:30:21 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v= By: Ellee http://elleeseymour.com/2006/10/16/is-electoral-reform-totally-out-of-the-question/comment-page-1/#comment-2074 Ellee Wed, 25 Oct 2006 20:33:03 +0000 http://elleeseymour.com/2006/10/16/is-electoral-reform-totally-out-of-the-question/#comment-2074 Amdrew, Can you please clarify and explain what exactly is the difference between STV and PR? Amdrew, Can you please clarify and explain what exactly is the difference between STV and PR?

]]> By: Andrew Kitching http://elleeseymour.com/2006/10/16/is-electoral-reform-totally-out-of-the-question/comment-page-1/#comment-2062 Andrew Kitching Wed, 25 Oct 2006 16:43:33 +0000 http://elleeseymour.com/2006/10/16/is-electoral-reform-totally-out-of-the-question/#comment-2062 STV is not fully proportional, and a party gaining 45%+ can get a small majority- Fianna Fail have done this in Eire. It empowers the voters- they can choose between candidates from the same party- something Tories might like (libertarian or authoritarian Tory for example). It would also give tha party a toe-hold in areas they are currently weak in eg. South Yorkshire, Glasgow etc. Party List systems are anti-democratic STV is not fully proportional, and a party gaining 45%+ can get a small majority- Fianna Fail have done this in Eire.

It empowers the voters- they can choose between candidates from the same party- something Tories might like (libertarian or authoritarian Tory for example). It would also give tha party a toe-hold in areas they are currently weak in eg. South Yorkshire, Glasgow etc.

Party List systems are anti-democratic

]]> By: Neil Harding http://elleeseymour.com/2006/10/16/is-electoral-reform-totally-out-of-the-question/comment-page-1/#comment-1955 Neil Harding Sat, 21 Oct 2006 19:46:59 +0000 http://elleeseymour.com/2006/10/16/is-electoral-reform-totally-out-of-the-question/#comment-1955 Both The Tories and Labour benefited from FPTP in England. The Tories <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/vote2005/html/england.stm" rel="nofollow">got 35.7% of the vote and 36.7% of the seats</a>. So the Tories are actually OVERREPRESENTED in England by this system. How is this unfair to the Tories? The truth is <a href="http://brightonregencylabourparty.blogspot.com/2006/10/only-labour-will-give-us-pr-not-hung.html" rel="nofollow">List PR in the long term delivers higher economic growth, lower inequality, better funded public services, tougher environmental standards and higher political engagement</a>. Now after 9 years of opposition you guys have finally joined Labour in publicly backing these objectives, shouldn't this be the reasons we go for PR and ignore which tribal party allegiance it benefits? Both The Tories and Labour benefited from FPTP in England.

The Tories got 35.7% of the vote and 36.7% of the seats. So the Tories are actually OVERREPRESENTED in England by this system. How is this unfair to the Tories?

The truth is List PR in the long term delivers higher economic growth, lower inequality, better funded public services, tougher environmental standards and higher political engagement.

Now after 9 years of opposition you guys have finally joined Labour in publicly backing these objectives, shouldn’t this be the reasons we go for PR and ignore which tribal party allegiance it benefits?

]]> By: Robert McIlveen http://elleeseymour.com/2006/10/16/is-electoral-reform-totally-out-of-the-question/comment-page-1/#comment-1850 Robert McIlveen Wed, 18 Oct 2006 13:17:44 +0000 http://elleeseymour.com/2006/10/16/is-electoral-reform-totally-out-of-the-question/#comment-1850 The Liberal Democrats would surely losr votes as well, cityunslicker - their vote share slips where UKIP stand, so disaffected Tories could scatter, as could left-wing voters who tactically support the Lib Dems. PR could be a good electoral method for a democratic upper house, ensuring that no party would have a majority (especially if somehow a cross-bencher-style independent bloc were included), balancing the flaws of FPTP and PR across the two chambers. The Liberal Democrats would surely losr votes as well, cityunslicker – their vote share slips where UKIP stand, so disaffected Tories could scatter, as could left-wing voters who tactically support the Lib Dems.

PR could be a good electoral method for a democratic upper house, ensuring that no party would have a majority (especially if somehow a cross-bencher-style independent bloc were included), balancing the flaws of FPTP and PR across the two chambers.

]]> By: cityunslicker http://elleeseymour.com/2006/10/16/is-electoral-reform-totally-out-of-the-question/comment-page-1/#comment-1833 cityunslicker Tue, 17 Oct 2006 21:18:38 +0000 http://elleeseymour.com/2006/10/16/is-electoral-reform-totally-out-of-the-question/#comment-1833 I must add though that this will not be considered by the Tories. Take my example I live in Kent and my MP holds a slim majority over the Lib Dems. Therefore I vote Tory, even as they slip to the left. With a change to the system I may well vote UKIP as it would not directly damage the Tories in a marginal. The Tories can lose votes to the LD's and UKIP. Lab to the LD's. All lose votes to the Greens. Overall who benefits most? LD's, then Lab, UKIP, Others, Tories. It is a calculated logic for Tories to want to keep the current system, even with its flaws I must add though that this will not be considered by the Tories.

Take my example I live in Kent and my MP holds a slim majority over the Lib Dems. Therefore I vote Tory, even as they slip to the left. With a change to the system I may well vote UKIP as it would not directly damage the Tories in a marginal.

The Tories can lose votes to the LD’s and UKIP. Lab to the LD’s. All lose votes to the Greens.

Overall who benefits most? LD’s, then Lab, UKIP, Others, Tories.

It is a calculated logic for Tories to want to keep the current system, even with its flaws

]]> By: peter from putney http://elleeseymour.com/2006/10/16/is-electoral-reform-totally-out-of-the-question/comment-page-1/#comment-1830 peter from putney Tue, 17 Oct 2006 19:44:31 +0000 http://elleeseymour.com/2006/10/16/is-electoral-reform-totally-out-of-the-question/#comment-1830 I always thought it was pathetic that Keith Best was sent to prison for such a trivial offence - and thereby ruined his parliamentary career to boot. When you consider the real crimes which are committed and the individuals barely receive a slap on the wrist! I always thought it was pathetic that Keith Best was sent to prison for such a trivial offence – and thereby ruined his parliamentary career to boot. When you consider the real crimes which are committed and the individuals barely receive a slap on the wrist!

]]> By: uk daily pundit http://elleeseymour.com/2006/10/16/is-electoral-reform-totally-out-of-the-question/comment-page-1/#comment-1814 uk daily pundit Tue, 17 Oct 2006 12:51:59 +0000 http://elleeseymour.com/2006/10/16/is-electoral-reform-totally-out-of-the-question/#comment-1814 Slightly connected to party support, Ed Vaizey makes a good point <a href="http://edvaizey.mpblogs.com/2006/10/09/campaign-groups-welcome/" rel="nofollow">here about the rise of campaign groups. Slightly connected to party support, Ed Vaizey makes a good point here about the rise of campaign groups.

]]> By: Guthrum http://elleeseymour.com/2006/10/16/is-electoral-reform-totally-out-of-the-question/comment-page-1/#comment-1813 Guthrum Tue, 17 Oct 2006 12:34:22 +0000 http://elleeseymour.com/2006/10/16/is-electoral-reform-totally-out-of-the-question/#comment-1813 I have been waiting for some serious debate on this subject since I first joined the Campaign for Electoral Reform thirty years ago.All three parties have declined to consider PR/STV in the 20th Century, when they were ahead. The whole system is creaked, people are not voting anymore because everything is so centralised, that 'the link' between geographically area is largely non existant. We have not had a Great Reform Bill since the 1830's. It is about time the 'rotten boroughs' created by 'safe' seats were swept away. I have been waiting for some serious debate on this subject since I first joined the Campaign for Electoral Reform thirty years ago.All three parties have declined to consider PR/STV in the 20th Century, when they were ahead. The whole system is creaked, people are not voting anymore because everything is so centralised, that ‘the link’ between geographically area is largely non existant. We have not had a Great Reform Bill since the 1830′s. It is about time the ‘rotten boroughs’ created by ‘safe’ seats were swept away.

]]> By: icedink http://elleeseymour.com/2006/10/16/is-electoral-reform-totally-out-of-the-question/comment-page-1/#comment-1812 icedink Tue, 17 Oct 2006 12:20:50 +0000 http://elleeseymour.com/2006/10/16/is-electoral-reform-totally-out-of-the-question/#comment-1812 Good debate, enjoyed reading it, and a fine and noble intevention at the end from Mr Best for whom, I think, we should let bygones be bygones. First past the post has many faults and does throw up anomolies, such as the Tories gaining a greater number of votes in England last year, but it also tends to elect serious players from parties which can actually have a stab at forming either governments or oppositions. Lists elections have already created two classes of MSP in the hopeless Holyrood talking shop and PR would, I fear, open the door for undesirables from the far Right. UKIP might stand a chance that way or, worse for all of us, the BNP. The second point is that changing the rules to change the outcome just doesn't feel right. The Tories will get back in next time or maybe the time after that and will have their chance. The wheel always turns and history teaches us that governments elected with no overall majority usually go to the country again in a year or so and either do the job properly or get chucked out: given a second chance, the electorate opts for a clear-cut answer. Good debate, enjoyed reading it, and a fine and noble intevention at the end from Mr Best for whom, I think, we should let bygones be bygones.

First past the post has many faults and does throw up anomolies, such as the Tories gaining a greater number of votes in England last year, but it also tends to elect serious players from parties which can actually have a stab at forming either governments or oppositions. Lists elections have already created two classes of MSP in the hopeless Holyrood talking shop and PR would, I fear, open the door for undesirables from the far Right. UKIP might stand a chance that way or, worse for all of us, the BNP.

The second point is that changing the rules to change the outcome just doesn’t feel right. The Tories will get back in next time or maybe the time after that and will have their chance. The wheel always turns and history teaches us that governments elected with no overall majority usually go to the country again in a year or so and either do the job properly or get chucked out: given a second chance, the electorate opts for a clear-cut answer.

]]> By: Ellee http://elleeseymour.com/2006/10/16/is-electoral-reform-totally-out-of-the-question/comment-page-1/#comment-1809 Ellee Tue, 17 Oct 2006 08:02:50 +0000 http://elleeseymour.com/2006/10/16/is-electoral-reform-totally-out-of-the-question/#comment-1809 Keith, thank you for responding to the points raised. It will be interesting to see how STVs work out in Scotland. Keith, thank you for responding to the points raised. It will be interesting to see how STVs work out in Scotland.

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