Too many men are getting away with rape, probably going on to commit further assaults against women. In many cases, police don’t believe the victims and report the rape allegations as “no crime”.
Of course, police have to weed out the false allegations, but a report published today by Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary and Her Majesty’s Crown Prosecution Service Inspectorate believes many cases should have been further investigated.
Why are police so dismissive in nearly a third of cases, is it because the victims are wearing short skirts and had been drinking? Or maybe because they knew the victim, which 86% of women do, meaning it is hard to prove – her word against his?
It takes guts to report a rape, the woman has to face a character assassination in the witness box in an attempt to discredit her evidence.
Solicitor General Mike O’Brien today said on radio that “significant numbers’ of men were getting away with rape – and with only 5% of reported rapes resulting in conviction, it must be a cause of serious concern.
It takes a very brave woman who is prepared to not only re-live her ordeal in court, but also face having her character ripped to shreds, as well as knowing the appallingly low conviction rate.
I wonder how many unreported cases of rape there are, that women do not believe justice will be done. Why are police being so judgemental?
I have to say, Reactionay Snob, probably not one of your usual reads, has written an excellent piece on this from a legal perspective.
I don’t have any answer myself, the subject is just so complex.
It seems that we have taken a few steps backwards in this for there was a time when the police were dealing more sensitively with this issue. It must be terrible to have to look at your attacker again in court and to have to face character assassination as well is unimaginable. Sadly, there is still an attitude of “she was asking for it” ; you’d think this would be a thing of the past in the 21st century.
she was asking for it�
But what if she quite literally did ask for it. In rapes there is usually a lot of evidence of violence and so some evidence can be brought to bear. In other cases though it is her word against his .
On that basis you should not convict and its not as if women don`t make false allegations maliciously , they do, frequently.
The police are dismissive because there is no evidence. A woman`s suffering is not evidence it is only what she says .
The only answer is to be more careful.Is that so bad ?
Ellee , can you explain to me that women that defend other women`s right to flaunt themselves provocative clothing usually dress like somebodies aging mother themselves complete with NO SEX HERE signs .
I can`t help noticing, in fact these women are often the most judgemental abotu the morakls not only of men but also of other women. Its odd isn`t it
Cityunslicker, I always like reading new sites, so I will check out RSnob. As you say, it is a complex subject, but one that has to be faced, imagine if it was your wife or daughter.
Newmania, Women are more confident about their bodies and wear what they feel comfortable in, it’s not an open invitation for sex. We can’t wear polo necks and baggy trousers for fear of being pounced on. But yes, you are also right about women being judgemental against others. We are our own harshest critics sometimes. Neither, as you say, can police prosecute if it is one word against the other, but this report says they are not taking enough trouble in many cases to fully investigate the rape allegation, they give up too soon.
Ellee I think thats pretty balanced. One gets so used to the special pleading of wimmin`s movements of various sorts that I must be in permanent disagree mode.
There is a tremendous amount of bitterness about women amongst men and in the oft divorced blogger sphere it is especially apparent. I participated in one debate on the Boris “Forum” and some fo the stuff that came out was astonishing .
Remember Wimmin`s studies and so on are the contemporaries of the Hard left of the late sixties and seventies and they can be similiarly militant.
I wonder if that sort of thing might be harnful . I think there is now alot of agreement along pragmatic lines on the old battles
One of the best ways for men to protect themselves against false accusations is not to sleep with people on first acquiantance, especially if the woman concerned is drunk.
I also think it wise for anybody that if they are meeting someone of the opposite sex and they think that something physical might happen, they should always keep a close friend updated on the situation.
People have to take some responsibility for their own actions, and that applies to men as well as women in this instance.
A woman who reports right away, and has a proper examination will have a good chance of winning with today’s technology.
There are two sides to every story, Ellee and police need to be certain before they destroy a man’s reputation and take away his liberty for a long stretch. Anyone can fling accusations but they need to be substantiated. It would be far easier to prove if she wasn’t socializing with them in the first place. Like the assault on Jackie Danicki. That was a clear case of unprovoked. But many of these are very line ball.
Jean-Luc, Of course, besides DNA evidence, John Reid is thinking of introducing lie detector tests, that could be jolly useful.
James, I agree that police need to be certain, that false allegations have been made too which is indefensible, but a 5% convinction rate for rape allegations is shockingly low. As Joe says, both men and women need to try and protect themselves, but you can’t always have a witness available at the right time.
Ellee, what is also of concern is the amount of rape convictions which are quashed on appeal. This suggests that this is an offence which generates a lot of spurious accusations, for a number of reasons.
I think that a lot of girls out there don’t say no when they mean no or would mean no if they were thinking straight and try to back-date later the no that should have been there from the start.
That said, if men didn’t take advantage in the first place, if both parties made sure the other was comfortable before proceeding, these problems wouldn’t arise so often.
I always make clear to any woman I meet that I don’t sleep with anyone on first meeting and I explain why. I think a man has moral obligations in that respect.
While Mr Picard is obviously right to note that a woman “who reports right away, and has a proper examination will have a good chance of winning with today’s technology”, the question of consent is at the heart of the matter. Technology doesn’t really come into it.
I claim no expert knowledge of the legal complexities involved. But for the record, I have done spot a digging and discovered that there is some academic research that estimates 60% of rape allegations are false. Somehow I have doubts about the reliability of that figure.
(McDowell, P. (1985), “False Allegations”, Forensic Science Digest, 11(4):64)
IT, 60% false allegations seems an incredibly high figure to me. How many of them are prosecuted for wasting police time?
Hi Ellee –
i posted on this myself and have been dealing with the fallout of a friend i know who was raped and wont report it. I would second what newmania says – male attitudes are a bit depressing and a great deal of it has to do with instant knee jerk anger over militant groups and a media portayal that women are liars or drunks or devious. But its time to move beyond that. There is an issue with reporting it, how it is handled ( i speak from experience myself) and a fear of jury perceptions and feeling you are on trial or defending yourself.
There is more often a male attitude of lets look at the issue of women lying, women drinking, women being devious first, men being unjustly tried before we agree that rape occurs, usually you know the rapist and it is not the womans fault and women arent rpeoprting it. How do we change the attitude to get the help we need to all see this through? If we dont want it left up to the hardline groups then we need men to acknowledge and assist.
Thanks for posting on it.
Alison, Just as women can’t tar men with the same brush, then the same applies to men, because a woman wears a short shirt, men cannot jump to the conclusion that she is “asking for it”. Successful prosecutions rely on evidence, enough evidence to convince a jury beyond reasonable doubt, including forensic and medical evidence. This is essential to prove a case, they need to report the attack to police asap. They also need an excellent legal team who believes in them.
When it comes to the trial, the defendant will most likely turn up in court dressed smartly in a suit, like butter wouldn’t melt in his mouth, he will try and manipulate the jury’s mind into believing his innocence. The victim, on the other hand, often ends up feeling she is the one on trial instead. I would like to see the women give evidence from behind a screen, this should help reduce their courtroom trauma.
In spite of this, I hope women will be brave enough to report rapes, it’s essential so men are not allowed to continue attacking other women and getting away with it. It’s appalling that some women make false allegations which makes it harder for genuine cases to be believed.
Ellee, I’ll admit I find this whole topic an uneasy one to deal with.
Two weeks ago, for the first time I met my closest friend’s brother’s girlfriend’s niece. That sounds a level of distance, but it’s not.
She found I was someone she could talk to. I discovered she had been raped from 12 upwards by her stepfather. He is now in HMP Shrewsbury, she is 19 and has a child who (she didn’t say) but I guess is his. That’s horrible. It still disturbs me now.
Since then she has rung me most days and I am finding it quite a burden. Not because I don’t care but because I DO.
My friend says I should ignore her calls, it’s not my problem to deal with, but I can’t do that. Knowing what’s happened to her, I want to cry for her in a sense.
This is not an easy topic, it’s a real can of worms, there’s a lot of pain comntained within.
I don’t really know what I think about your intial comments.
One direction that should also be considered within this topic is if so many men are “getting away” with rape, could it not bed be because too many women are prosecuting what is NOT rape?
Thunderdragon does raise a fair point, but it’s not the point. I’ve listened to a lady on Radio 4 yesterday morning. She outlined what she had to endure from off-hand and unsympathetic police handling to indifference by the Crown prosecutor in her case. Appaling
For a jury to be swayed by a ‘short skirt’ is, clearly, unfortunate.
The issue of drinking, however, presents a real dilemma for any juror. The whole concept of consent when one (or both) parties is under the influence is an ethical minefield. Jurys will behave inconsistently until we have a societal consensus on this.
Melbourne Jan 31st 2007. Ex leader of the Aboriginal Land council was convicted in the civil courts for the gang rape of a woman in 1971.
The woman pursued the matter all these years until justice was done. She said quote “I now have my life back”
After this, another woman (his cousin), also claims she was raped by him. Both ladies were 16 years of age at the time.
The woman victory was against all odds , in view of the powerful position the man held.
But she won.
Sadly, prosecuting sexual matters is the most frustrating job there is. Thankfully many of the matters i have been involved in, we’ve managed to get the accused to plea. Whilst i am not a fan of “plea charging” in the majority of criminal matters, when it comes to sexual ones, i am all in favour. It saves the woman….child, so much grief in having to face a X from the defence, not only at the Indictment & Trial, but the fact that the Complainants must repeat their story over and over to the dr’s…police….other criminal justice agencies etc.
Lie detectors in this type of matter…..well i doubt i will ever see one in anything i’m involved with.
Men are getting away with it basically because of little evidence….here in this country anyway. If the woman doesn’t get a rape kit done ASAP…..you are shovelling shit up a hill trying to prove it. Reporting rates are on the rise here, yet there are still so many that go un reported 🙁
Ellee
And right on cue you get the accusations back that the issue is with women who lie, so its all our fault. I think the media in highlighting the cases where this occurs has given some men too much of an excuse to turn away from the issue generally and point the finger.
I agree with you that those cases are appauling. But i think protecting anonymity in rape trials for both parties might resolve this.
However there is no getting away from the fact that male attitudes need to change to assist. You are right they are your sisters, girlfriends and so forth. Ive been struck since discussing this with friends by the number of women i now know who are affected by this. They are not the media representation of date rape.
What strikes me is the same judges who dismiss ideas out of sight as they have done recently – this included some good ideas outside of the consent issue – are the ones who make hideous errors in handing out sentencing for all sorts of crime and seem to favour the criminals not the victims. We need more women in the judiciary probably.
Joe, This woman obviously finds it a great comfort to talk to you, I’m glad you are still there for her. I wonder if she has tried professional counselling, but at the end of the day, it is the support of friends that is invaluable. What a shocking story, there seem to be so many like this from the comments above, including Simon’s.
Alison, I didn’t mean it to come over that way, I always try to be balanced and see both sides. But you are right about the negative press on this, and of course people tend to believe what they read.
The public doesn’t hear enough about the genuine cases that slip through the net, the impact this has on their lives for years to come. But then after suffering a terrible ordeal, it is not the kind of story they want to shout about. If you and other women have any ideas about how these issues can be more fairly dealt with to support victims, could I suggest you write to Eleanor Laing MP who is the Conservative Women’s Minister. I will give you her contact details if you are interested. There needs to be a forum among victims to discuss this and help bring about changes which would support them better.
MEANWHILE my sistas “I would second what newmania says “, wow that’s a first. Thanks Alison , can I come to your consciousness raising sessions now I’m “in” with the girls .
Just as a side slant about what is happening between men and women did you know that 40% of female graduates born in 1970 will reach 40 childless. Rape is nothing to do with “men� it’s a criminal matter and women tend to get confused about this distinction . Judging from the figures I have been browsing in B Johnson’s thought provoking and funny piece this AM, relations between ordinary members of both sexes are going badly wrong ,and it is all the fault of women. They would rather have a career than children , and will not accept that if they are successful then not all their partners can out-do them which they would secretly prefer.
They want it all and then they want it all back again. I saw you talking about how hard it was to try to be everything on Doughty Street Ellee. Quite touching and I recognise the problem all to well .
For a man there is a mirror image. Read the “exploited male� Life for most men has few options and is an unrelenting treadmill of work and crushing responsibility for which we receive no thanks, no money and no time, before ending up ,left to rot, by the divorce courts .
This hasn’t yet happened to me I should add, but when do you think we are going to start talking about men’s rights , men`s choices and female exploitation. I know it’s a different subject but the “All men are rapists “ pathology is part and parcel of what is going wrong .It is part of the myth that men can never be right, only tolerated .
(* Am I still in the sisterhood?*)
A few suggestions:
1) Introduce a new offence of ‘unlawful sexual intercourse’ or whatever, to relate to a ‘rape’ charge as ‘manslaughter’ does to ‘murder’. This would result in many more convictions. the problem is, that everyone associates rape with the worst cases: the hooded stranger pouncing on a woman in her home/ walking home from the bus stop, use of knife or other weapon, threats of (and actual) violence. This means that, if a case involves none of those features (i.e. man known to woman, no injuries, no weapons), a jury is very reluctant to bracket the perpetrator in with the likes of Jack the Ripper.
2) Juries are very reluctant to convict young, especially good-looking men _ basically because they don’t think a man who could easily ‘get it’ would NEED to rape someone and thereby risk the terrible legal consequences. Prosecutors need to be much more proactive in stressing to juries that rape is not so much about sex as about power and the assertion of control etc. etc.
3) Give anonymity to the charged as well as the alleged victim: in cases involving no violence where victim and accused are known to each other, swithering jury members are quite likely to think: ‘Well, his name has already been dragged to thru the papers and the mud, he’s suffered enough”. This is especially true where defense lawyers emphasise the impact of the charge upon their client.
4) raise the price of alcohol in line with rising incomes _ the real price of booze must have plummeted in the last 15 years.
5) end the flat rate duty on beers and wines _this should reflect the ABC content of the drink _ tackle the Stella culture!
6) start aggressively prosecuting _ with massive fines _ any bar that serves alcohol to anyone who is drunk. I think it’s supposed to happen already, but I’ve never heard of it.
7) re. the false claims _ the definition of rape neds to be much more precise and clearly communicated to everyone: sex against your expressed consent and resistance. It is not sex that you regretted after the fact _ whether it’s the particular man you regret or the particular acts you engaged in. Not sex where you suspect the guy kept buying you drinks to lower your resistance. Those things may be morally dubious, but they’re not rape.
I can see thats all well meaning David but will it really make a difference. Para 1 I quite like the idea of but “degress of rape has severe problems for men and women.
the only answer is for women to take responsibility for their safety. Why not , stop wandering around except with a man you trust. Remember men are far more subject to violent assault and as David says its about power9 and violence0 not sex.
David, rape is “unlawful sexual intercourse”. This is a tricky one because it’s seriousness should not be reduced in any way, you must consider the impact this has on the victim. I’m sure that judges do take into account the level of violence used and some rapists have been jailed for life.I believe defendants should remain anonymous unless convicted.
Newmania, I don’t think women would go anywhere with a man if they didn’t feel they trusted him.
Ellee, thankyou for your response to my last post.
The reason why I am still troubled by the whole issue is that when one comes across examples such as I described, one is looking at examples of pure evil, which remain underpunished. It is clear in the case of the girl I described that her stepfather was a sexual predator who I guess married her mother with his plan in mind- the assaults took place whilst her mother worked nights. In situations such as this, Life imprisonment seems right- though I don’t think it was given here.
After all, she will never recover- her life is always blighted.
This sort of horror is in a different league to some drunken lad getting the wrong message from a drunken girl.
Of course, the latter is still wrong, it still has a consequence, and to deter it, some penalty has to be there.
But it is probably fair that we do distinguish between types of rape- the drunken lad hypothesised in the latter situation should not return to society carrying the branding that links him to monsters such as described earlier.
It isn’t fair to girls like this one to compare what she went through to so called ‘date rapes’, because there was absolutely nothing she could have done to preempt what happened and we are dealing with a huge level of malice aforethought- and repetition without remorse.
Ellee – sorry came across wrong – that wasnt directed at you the ‘right on cue’ bit! Thank you ill look Eleanor up and see what i can do.
Joe – Germaine Greer (someone i rarely agree with!) suggested splitting the offences to differentiate date rape from rape. Not to trivialise it but in fact to highlight the two as seperate and take what you describe into account. Sounds like an interesting idea.
The other thing about more general attitudes is that just as women and drink culture has created problems in itself for women (less fearful, losing inhibitions, not being careful)so has it had a negative effect on young guys who feel they can get away with more. We have never really encouraged a respectful attitude towards one another and some of that has to do with how things have evolved in a ‘couldnt care less’ society.
You are right of course, Alison, in your remarks about our society.
Something else that occurs to me also- possibly one of the most unreported types of rape is one where victims do not report it because of the perceived shame to their own sense of who they are- I mean rapes by men on men. I think only a tiny proportion of these are reported in relation to their actual occurance. Certainly I am aware that happens, that at various times in my life I’ve come across people it has supposedly happened to, in none of those cases were they reported- or if they were they weren’t investigated- presumably because the victim didn’t want to testify.
It’s a minefield this subject isn’t it?
Joe, You are certainly right about male rapes, we hear very little about them, I have no idea how many convictions there are for this each year.
This article in the Times puts a whole new twist on the figures which are somewhat misleading…
So we are weak on rape? Think again
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,6-2577435,00.html
Reading Simon’s comment above, I was reminded of the Pitcairn trial. There we have British justice on the subject on show to the world.
Look at the length of the indictments and look at the sentences. I think it would make yourself Ellee, and yourself Alison, bloody angry to read about the case in any depth.
It angered me.
None of them got more than three years.
I don’t think you can possibly use the Pitcairn matters as an example. Its one right out of the box with so many variables. Imagine, being raised on an island, no contact to the outside world, raised generation after generation being taught that its ok and your right to have sex with your sister…mother, aunt…etc
The Pitcairn trials made me very angry on so many levels, i hope to god nothing like it occurs again.
Ian – i think if you check any of the comments & discussions on threads about rape when they come up generally (or even talk to girlfriends etc) you will find that those figures make quite a bit of sense. The nos that are NOT reported are most shocking of all.
Will Self has a tremendous article in the ES last night which i will post a link to when i can. One of a kind. It is both balanced and acknowledging. A first i think!
I’m absolutely astonished that the figures are so low. I also think it’s sad that when we’re talking about rape and low conviction figures, there’s an immediate discussion about false allegations. Not, of course, that it shouldn’t be thought of: some women do lie about it, and it’s wrong to think all men are evil potential rapists.
Here is a Times article on this which may be of interest:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,6-2577435,00.html
Ellee, for the sake of sexual equality, when will you post on why so many wives get away with the murder of their husbands and are convicted of the lesser charge of manslaughter instead!?!
Do the dead husbands “face a character assassination in the witness box”?
I very much agree with Nimue that it’s sad that when we’re talking about rape and low conviction figures, there’s an immediate discussion about false allegations. I also, though, worry very much about discussions of ‘low conviction figures’.
The problem with prosecuting rape cases when the issue is consent is that the jury aren’t asked ‘who do you believe?’ or ‘do you think she’s telling the truth?’ but, in effect, ‘are you sure he might not be telling the truth?’ If the juror thinks, ‘Well, probably he raped her, but I can’t be sure’ then the vote has to be not guilty.
I work in the Criminal Justice Service so I’m probably more familiar with what happens in rape trials than are some people, and I’m certain that most of the acquittals I’ve seen have been when the jury either weren’t sure who to believe or thought he probably raped her but couldn’t be sure enough to send a man to prison. Certainly there aren’t many cases I’ve been involved in when I’ve thought, ‘she’s probably making it up’.
The only way I can think of, though, that you could alter this is by changing the standard of criminal proof, which would be a terrible idea.